SPEAKER_02 0:15

Well, hey, Lifehouse family. Welcome back to our Monday time with Pastor Mark. It's a blessing for me every week. I know I get to hang out with Pastor Mark, and we pray it's a blessing to you just to hear more from our sermon yesterday, the series we're going through. Really, our goal at heart is to continue to dig deeper. You know, we know Sundays are amazing times of worship, but want to give you more, more time to just dig into God's word, maybe questions that you come come to think about, or God asked to Pastor Mark. So time to really dig in. And we're continuing through Zechariah, you know, so it's kind of really a time. Old Testament, and I know yesterday was a lot of scripture we went through, three total visions.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

A lot of scripture, long sermon. I did get the critique from my wife a little bit longer than it probably should have been. So I apologize.

How God Speaks Through Visions

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Um, but yeah. All good. So, but yeah, I think this is we love the Old Testament and the New Testament. It's all God's word, but and I think you briefly touched, but maybe we can dig into really the idea. You know, God is sharing visions and and prophecy with Zechariah here, which he's bringing to God's people. So, you know, how should we kind of think about this in terms of where we are today? How is that?

Discernment: Dreams, Fear, And Clarity

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I mean, so yeah, vision. Ultimately, this is revelation. Like God used visions. And again, I think that Zechariah was having visions and not dreams because he says, Behold, I or I saw in the night, or I looked up and saw. And so, and then after that saying, Behold. So, like, I want you to see what I saw. So picture it for yourself. But this is revelation, like God speaking to his people, his word, a word of the Lord of Yahweh, came to Zechariah in the form of this vision. And so, and we see that. We see uh Joseph was a dreamer, right? He had the dreams, and through those dreams, God revealed revelation, his plan uh for his people, for Joseph and his brothers and his and the family, that the Jews. Um, and so yeah, all throughout the testament we see both. I I still in the New Testament the promise is fulfilled, like young men will see visions, old men will dream dreams. I guess you know, I've been having I talked about it. Apparently, sausage, man. Italian sausage. I had a really good dream. If you weren't here, talked about it where I actually tasted the sausage in my dream, but I'm not gonna say that's from God, but it was definitely I woke up in a very good mood. But I think that we need to be humble in seeking dreams and visions or claiming that dreams are visions, are revelation from God, like it's God speaking a word to us through the dreams and visions. Uh, I'm not gonna say that that God doesn't use those to encourage us. I do believe that God gives us what we need. He speaks, you know, through circumstances, he speaks through situations, and that that might be a dream or a vision that he gives you to get you to be in the right place, to get us to be in the right place. And so, um, but ultimately we have God's word. We have access to God's word. The people of Zechariah's day did not have the canon of scripture, the truth that we have, and that we don't take advantage of in the way that we should. And so, like we can hear the word of the Lord as in receive it, you know, just simply through reading. I don't know, what are your thoughts about that?

SPEAKER_02 3:31

I agree, and just thinking about New Testament times, you know, with you know, Paul would have, you know, visions of go to these people and Peter, you know, when all food is clean and go to Macedonia, and that's how Cornelius and his family through dreams. And so I think, kind of to your point, you know, we shouldn't necessarily take them as the end all beal, but I think God may use them to move you in a direction. You know, I think that's what we see here contextually.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Like dreams are impactful. Like I can wake up, I have a dream, and I can be in a bad mood. I can be mad at my wife because of what went down in the dream.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

You know, speaking of husbands out there, I get in trouble for what I do. Do you get in trouble? I've been on the flip side of that too.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Like I'm like, and she had this dream, and I'm like, oh man. So we have to just, but the thing is, like, because of that, like again, God wants to get us to where we need to be, and so he'll do what impacts us. And so I don't want to take dreams and visions off the table. Uh, but yeah, like I think we just have to be careful. We can know that God is not the author of confusion. So I'll say that. So if your dream confuses you, like I would that that's kind of a sign to me. Like, I God's a God of clarity, revelation. Like, He wants you to know what the dream's about. So I think with the dream will come wisdom and understanding if it's from the Lord. Another thing people have, uh, and really primarily when I communicate with other believers who want to share with me a dream they had, very often it's a terrifying dream. It's a nightmare, literally. And I struggle to think that God would use that. Like God is not, God does not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and self-control. And even in scripture, you know, some people approach the book of Revelation, and there's some very like overwhelming, like incredible things to picture, like things that we've never seen before, things that are described that that seem like they come right out of a horror movie, right? Grasshoppers, and you know, I mean, with with long hair and dragons, crazy, yeah, dragons, beasts. Um but the book of Revelation is not meant to scare believers, it's meant to prepare believers, you know, and so we we have nothing to perfect love, casts out fear. God is with us always, even to the end of the age. And so whether it's the book of Revelation, the word of God literally, uh, or it's a vision or a dream, you know, just I think that's something to consider as you consider your dreams and your visions or thoughts, or just the word of God. Like, like, are you approaching, considering it the right way? Revelation is meant to prepare believers, not scare them. Right.

Zechariah’s Exile Context And Hope

SPEAKER_02 6:12

I think so, yeah. Keeping that humbly, and I think that leads well into like really contextually where we're at in Zechariah. You know, we're at the end. I think we talked a little bit for those who joined us last week. You know, we're at the end of the exile, like really the nation of Israel's really kind of at a low point, might even arguably say one of the lowest points, like going into judgment, having been in exile for 70 years, you know, is God still, you know, we've had Ezekiel and some speak during this time, but you know, like when when's things gonna happen? You know, they preach potential restoration, you know, Jeremiah said new covenant, so many good things, but like honestly, the people at this time were probably like, Where are you, God? Are we done? Is this over?

Not By Might But By Spirit

Four Horns And Four Craftsmen Explained

SPEAKER_01 6:53

They are so discouraged at this time. They're, you know, depressed. And technically, even though they have returned from exile, like come out of this remnant, has returned to Jerusalem. Zechariah, probably born in exile, has returned from exile. There's technically, officially still in exile. The 70 years officially marks the time that the the temple was leveled to the time where the temple was actually finished and rebuilt. That is the official 70 years. And so the temple's not rebuilt yet. So technically, they're still, even though they're in Jerusalem, they're actually still officially in exile. And still, hence their despair, hence their discouragement. And they're just like, man, like we don't have the resources we need, we don't have the strength we need. And this ultimately is the message. Like God tells them, it's not gonna be by might, not by power, but it's by my spirit, says the Lord, that that you're gonna rebuild this temple. But but this is meant to be extraordinary encouragement and comfort to them. Like this encouragement and comfort, this this was like a feel-good message, you know. I mean, this is not prosperity gospel, you know, and listen, we want to be humble, we want to be obedient, we want to preach the word of God. And this is, though, very much intended to impactfully, motivatingly, incitingly, you know, incite believers to action through encouragement. I mean, in the second in the third vision, and again, they all relate, like that that that message is up, up, like exclamation point, excellent, like wake up, rise up, like with this information, this reality that God remembers, that he's not forgotten or forsaken you, that he still has a plan, and that the measuring line is gonna, there's gonna be rebuilding and restoring and restoration and redeeming. Like, I promise you, like you can count on me. God is essentially telling us people, I'm exceedingly jealous for you. Like I love you, I yearn for you. Like, yes, I'm gonna show you mercy, and Jerusalem will once again overflow, abound, be filled and overflowing with prosperity. And so that's the message, you know, and it's meant to encourage.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

And it can be easy for us to get forgetful too. So, like I say, I think this encouragement, it's been 70 years. Sometimes people may, you know, again, but like you say, the God's timing, he's moving in God's time, which I think you pointed out in the message. You know, we have craftsmen here. We don't have, you know, warriors. God is very precise, you know. So what he's doing in his timing and his purposes is a very precise way. That's 70 years, yeah, it's fulfilling prophecy. I know we're gonna get into Christ, you know. So it can sometimes be like the coming of Christ as a newborn was a very precise time. So God is very carefully doing this. And in our lives, we want what we want when we want it, and it's easy to get down.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

When we don't get what we want when we want it, we we get God, we're next to God. But yeah, I think that that is to me, as I consider these three visions that all go together. What was maybe the most impactful thing to me or fascinating thing to me was in the second of the three visions, there's these four horns and four craftsmen, like you mentioned. And and what's explained to Zechariah to explain and then to tell the people is that these four craftsmen are going to cast down the four horns, the four horns representing the superpower nations, like the horn was a symbol of strength. But then these four craftsmen, right? Artisans, not warrior angels, like I would expect, that come and you know slash the horns in two or cast them down, or not these, you know, bodybuilders, but craftsmen, artisans. Why craftsmen? Like, why did God choose? What's the message behind or the meaning or the the significance of craftsmen? Um they're artisans, like that. Artists have patience, right? They don't rush the process. Uh, when you think about metal workers or engravers, or you know, that's that's what would have described uh Lola mentioned Bezalel, I think it is, from uh Exodus, or I think it was an Exodus, uh, who was one of the first craftsmen. Uh they they they're they were very detailed in their work. They didn't just come in and like do abstract art and throw it on the, you know, throw paints of uh buckets of paint on a canvas and call it art. Like it was very detailed and intricate. And I think that's the message. Like the they Jerusalem wasn't like just immediately after these visions overflowing with prosperity. Like God was telling them, trust my timing, trust the process. It's detailed, like it's very like I'm a God of precision and a God of order. And like so, these craftsmen are gonna come and and according to my plan, cast down that's aggression, these four horns that have come against my people. But yeah, the the second vision, I believe the the message or the theme there is that God will eventually cast down the enemies of his people. And we see that in the book of Revelation. So I think some of it has dual fulfillment. I think that there was fulfillment. Babylon is nowhere to be seen, Persia is nowhere to be seen, Egypt. I wouldn't describe them as a superpower. Um, Assyria, where's Assyria now, like the nation of Assyria? Uh but uh there we we see and in the book of Revelation, like that kind of activity taking place, that casting down.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

And in our society, you know, we got Amazon will deliver it to you right away. You know, like we're in a very gratification. And and even if we are in lows and exile, we're like, God, get me out. I want to get out right now. And that's just our human nature. But God is telling us like, be patient, wait on the Lord. Wait on the purpose for this of bringing things to the right timing.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Wait on the Lord. And it's not just like sit back, you know. The message in the third vision is up, up, like rise up, like get to work. That's his go. It is time, you know, that time's gonna go. Waiting on the Lord. Let's talk about that for a moment. What's it mean to wait on the Lord? It's not just sit back and like you're sitting in a waiting room for the doctor, one of my pet peeves, right? You you you make an appointment for like three o'clock and you expect to at least be seen by 3.10. And when you're sitting in there from 3 to 3:30, like, what? My point was at three. But it's not like that. Like waiting on the Lord is trusting in the Lord, like trusting the process and plan, like waiting on the Lord, knowing that he sees, he knows, he hears, that he remembers, and that he has a plan and that it's a good plan, right? Um, in fact, uh, I think of Jeremiah 29, 11 and 12, like where people often quote, I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you, not to harm you. But the verse leading right before that, Jeremiah 29, 10 and Jeremiah 29, 10, 11, and 12 are all directly communicated to the people of God in preparation for their exile and then subsequent comfort, exactly what Zechariah is communicating. So it truly is fascinating. This is not, these visions are not new revelation. They're really just reiterating what God has said very explicitly in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, you know, and uh Isaiah, like very explicitly detailed. I mean, we see in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, like measuring lines, and and like there's these things like horses and all these different things that it correlates. And so this is reiterating.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

Um yeah, I think that's a great point. And yeah, God is faithful, his promises are true, and they will come. And like you say, there's not a passive waiting. We are to expectantly wait, and too often, like you say, with that we take that as an excuse of, well, I'm just gonna hang out, but no, expectant and be ready. You know, we see that in the New Testament with the uh was it like the 12, 14, I mess up the number of virgins. You know, half were ready to go and had their lands and half were not. So when God is bringing things into your life, are you ready to follow after? Are you ready to go so that when God does, or are you gonna be kind of just sitting on the couch and God says let's go? And you're like, Well, I'm just I think even in the first vision, God was not happy with things being super at rest, and you know, just this kind of apathetic approach to things, like, no, be ready, and then when God says up, we get up and we go.

Active Waiting Versus Apathy

SPEAKER_01 15:28

So we there's the familiar verse, there is a verse that says, be still and know that I am God. But even in that exhortation, like it's not just like uh be immobile, it's like in essence, be silent, you know, and and and know that he is God. Like, like don't be distracted. Like, so there is an appropriate, sometimes it's appropriate to be still, but waiting on the Lord is that active waiting, and it's trusting and it's it's living in faithfulness to God, and it and that is not just chilling, right? It's not it's not just sitting in a don't don't picture that, waiting in a doctor's office, like when am I gonna be seen, or when is the doctor gonna come out? When's Jesus gonna return? Like I'm ready. No, we have work to do, you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

So even the even the purpose of the Sabbath, and it was uh man, uh, years I hadn't really thought about, but recreation, if you break it down, is recreation. It's not sloth, it's not chilling, it's right, you're resting for the purpose of being ready to go and to continue the work that God has for you. And yeah, maybe like Israel, it's a time of discipline and repentance, you know, like you talked about last week, or a time where God's like, hey, you need to have energy and like the seven years for Joseph, like you need to be ready to go for seven years of famine. There's gonna be times and seasons, but you know, really anytime we're in that pause, like we need to be prepared, we need to be seeking, we need to be ready to move when God moves and keep in step with the Spirit, like we talked in Galatians last year.

Urgency: Flee Babylon, Run To Zion

SPEAKER_01 17:01

So interestingly, as you're talking, something that hadn't really connected for me, but is in this moment, is so in the second version, like kind of the message is be patient, right? Like, trust the process, wait on the Lord. But in the third vision, what comes out is there's a sense of urgency. Like the instructions are like up, up, like flee from the land of the north from Babylon, and escape up exclamation point to Zion. Like, and so with this, like, be patient, wait on the Lord, there is also this sense of urgency. And that's how we're to live our lives, kind of in that tension, right? Trusting the process, waiting on the Lord, trusting his timing and his plan, but also living with that sense of urgency. Like, don't just like wait to flee Babylon, like for our application, flee the world. Like in Revelation, Babylon represents the world and the world system, the the world that's the under the influence of the Antichrist. Get out of Babylon because you don't want to be in Babylon, like the wrath of God is going to be poured out on Babylon, like flee up, up, exclamation point, and run, escape to Zion. Like run to the kingdom of God, run to Jesus. Like there is this, don't put it off to tomorrow. Uh, this is correlating with you know Paul's message in 2 Corinthians 6 2. Today is the day of salvation, right? Tomorrow may not be, you know, Romans 13. Wake up, church. The night is far gone, the day is at hand. And so we, while waiting, must also, I think, in conjunction with that waiting, like live in the tension of and and and uh honor that sense of urgency that I believe is appropriate for believers.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Yep. Took the words out of my mouth. I was gonna say we should have a sense of urgency about the gospel, about the work of the Lord. You know, we don't want to be in a hurry, we don't want to get ahead of God, but we should desire to see those things. And so when we have this encouragement, yeah, maybe God's calling you to do something. Maybe you're in that season of waiting and praying, but when you really sense the spirit move, which I know is our theme for this year, like be ready to go. And yeah, and the odds are if you're not in that expectant waiting, you know, you you miss it. You know, a lot of times we unfortunately miss those opportunities because we get slack, we think our prayer won't be answered, you know, all those kind of things. What difference is it gonna make? Yeah, right. Instead of really trusting in that, in that sense. But yeah, have a sense of urgency. Always on the football field, we said hustle, but don't hurry. You know, when we hurry, we make mistakes, we get ahead of God. But if you're hustling, if you're moving, you're in step with the spirit, then you see amazing things happen in God's timing. So many times we think, I want it now, but then God waits, and I'm like, yeah, if God had given me that job I wanted, or whatever the case may be at that time, like I'd have blown it. But I was more prepared, or things just came together circumstances. Circumstances when he moves you, you look back and it's like, I okay, God, I see what you were you were doing there. And that's where the people are in Zachariah's. I feel like we need a t-shirt that says, Hey, hustle but don't hurry.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

That's really good. Like we go, you gotta get that. We're gonna get Marcus's. You're gonna hear me quote you. Hustle but don't hurry. You know the origin of that? That's really good.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

It was interoficiating, and I can't remember if it was when it was my playing days or my officiating days, but whenever we would say you move with a purpose. You know, so don't move haphazardly, don't waste effort when you move. And so, like on the football field, as officials, as players, you were never to walk. You were always to be jogging, hustle. You don't sprint unless there's a reason. You know, okay, now it's live play. We sprint, we hustle, we got a purpose, move with a purpose, hustle, but don't hurry. You'll overrun the play, or you'll wear yourself out when you're hurrying. Run the race, but wait on the Lord, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:55

It's attention, but it's run the race, be still, you know, but and know that he is God. Like same thing. Hustle but don't hurry. I love that. Yeah.

Hustle But Don’t Hurry

SPEAKER_02 21:03

So so many things we could say, God's word's so deep, and we covered a lot. But any closing thoughts as we're continuing our journey into Zechariah?

SPEAKER_01 21:11

People may be in a season of exile or God calling you to move, or are you seen it in the past, a good time or I think just the only thing is really my heart, and if there's one, I guess maybe as I'm considering like regret that I have from yesterday's sermon, is that Jesus wasn't more front and center. I mean, he's the I really believe that the angel of the Lord that we see in these visions is a pre-incarnate Jesus. And that's what God, like really, when he is lifted up, he will draw people into himself. John 12 32. And that's really, I mean, he's the answer, right? He is the solution. He's what we need, not just mere encouragement and comfort, he is encouragement and comfort. Like Jesus, behold, he comes, right? It's even said Revelation 1:7, behold, he comes. Like, be ready. But also in the third vision, he says, Behold, I come and I will dwell in your midst. I mean, that is the encouragement of all encouragements. Like that is the blessing of all blessings. The glory, you know, the glorious blessing that's promised here is really it's Jesus. He is the Messiah, the angel, Lord, the Christ, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. We see him in Zechariah and in these visions. And that's pretty profound and incredible for me.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

And we're seeing God move that history. Like you said, we're gonna get into a lot of prophecy as we move through the book, but God is moving things forward and in his time and for his purposes, which when we study over history was amazingly the fullness of time. You know, we miss that sometimes, but God's timing is is really perfect. So not losing that we have that benefit. You know, Zachariah's people didn't know, yeah, but they were trusting, they were looking forward. We get to look back and just see so much depth there. So he's faithful. Well, Lifehouse family, thanks for joining us. We hope you are uh really just encouraged from uh this time with Pastor Mark. If you have other questions or or comments, feel free to send them in. I think we can always do QA with the pastor. If you have any, let us know. Uh, but we just want to help you go deeper, go further, uh, just deepen that trust with the Lord. So we'll look forward to seeing you next week.